On the show today we're throwing a fit over this week's episode that will make you want to scream. With joy that is over all the tips and insights provided by our cohost. Dr. Tyanna Snyder, a pediatric psychologist at Nationwide Children's Hospital. Every day she is working with families on a range of topics from picky eaters to sleep problems. In this week's episode, Dr. Snyder, unpacks temper tantrums, and provides a host of tools that can be used in and out of the classroom when helping overcome big emotions.
Support the showOn the show today we're throwing a fit over this week's episode that will make you want to scream. With joy that is over all the tips and insights provided by our cohost. Dr. Tyanna Snyder, a pediatric psychologist at Nationwide Children's Hospital. Every day she is working with families on a range of topics from picky eaters to sleep problems. In this week's episode, Dr. Snyder, unpacks temper tantrums, and provides a host of tools that can be used in and out of the classroom when helping overcome big emotions.
Support the showWe're throwing a fit over this week's episode that will make you want to scream. With joy that is over all the tips and insights provided by our cohost. From South Side Early Learning in Columbus, Ohio, gather round for Circle Time. Welcome back to another episode of Circle Time, I am so excited to be tackling one of the most requested topics to date. If you're new to the show, I'm Colin Page McGinnis, CEO of South Side Early Learning, and your host on the podcast. Today's guest co-host is Dr. Tyanna Snyder, a pediatric psychologist at Nationwide Children's Hospital. Every day she is working with families on a range of topics from picky eaters to sleep problems. In this week's episode, Dr. Snyder, unpacks temper tantrums, and provides a host of tools that can be used in and out of the classroom when helping overcome big emotions, let's jump right in. Dr. Snyder. Thank you for joining me on circle time today we have what might be the episode of all episodes when it comes to what our parents are interested in hearing about, but we, before we jump too far in, I was hoping you could introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about the work that you do.
Tyanna Snider:So my name's Diana Snyder, and I am a pediatric psychologist at nationwide children's hospital. I work in primary care. So I actually work. Off-site not at the main campus. I'm off at our Sharon Woods primary care center location. And. I see all kinds of different concerns. So really anything that a caregiver and patient might come into the pediatrician with is something that I could talk about or meet with them to discuss whatever concerns there might be from working on weaning from breastfeeding, to maybe depression, anxiety, and definitely a lot about tantrums.
Colin:Before we jump too far into tantrums. I was wondering if you could tell me really high level, what does a pediatric psychologist do? I think a lot of families are familiar with the pediatrician and maybe the term psychologist might scare some folks away if there's a referral made. And I was hoping you could spend a little bit of time before we start talking about what is a pediatric psychologist.
Tyanna Snider:Yeah, that's a really good question. And it does get a little bit confusing with all of the different doctors and people that you might see in different settings. And so I like to explain my job as just a talking doctor. So. I'm the lucky person who just gets to meet with patients and families and kids and adolescents. And just go in and talk about the things that might be going on and some of the challenges that they might be having. So as a psychologist, I don't prescribe medication. I don't do any shots or draw blood or anything like that. And I'm just there to give some different tips and recommendations about a whole bunch of different things that might be going on. Typically in pediatric psychology, we would think about maybe some concurrent medical concerns that might be going on. So if a child has a diagnosis of type one diabetes, a pediatric psychologist might be able to help with coming up with a routine. And ways to promote adherence with those treatment regimens that might be needed, or even if there's picky eating and we can help create a strategy or plan to help address some of those picky eating concerns that might come up.
Colin:awesome. Thanks for explaining that to me. But what I have here on the show for today is to talk about tantrums, which I know is something, every parent, a grandparent caretaker teacher is going to experience at least once. But I think you and I both know. Probably an everyday occurrence when dealing with the first five years and before we jump into strategies and maybe some of the underlying drivers of tantrums, I was wondering if we could start by talking about what is a tantrum, is there a definition that you work off of for tantrum? Is this something that's maybe as broad as I feel it is when we're using it in everyday dialogue with parents, I was wondering your insight on that.
Tyanna Snider:Yeah, I think, I kind of work off a pretty broad definition of tantrums and it could range from. Just general whining to crying, to kicking, to screaming, to flailing, to falling out on the floor, dropped down, tamp meltdowns or behavioral outbursts. There could be throwing things. Sometimes tantrums even include other scary behaviors like breath holding or. Hitting kids might be hitting themselves or doing some headbanging. So all of those things, I call a tantrum. And oftentimes, you know, it might be related to not getting their way being told no, having some change happen that maybe they weren't expecting. So oftentimes that's where they're coming from.
Colin:Yeah. And one of the first questions from our parents has to do with the magical age of two. And the question that we have is my child was the perfect child as the parents calling them the first few months until she turned two. Now she started saying no to every question that we ask, and she is dramatically thrown herself onto the floor, kicking her arms and hands. Feet on the ground when screaming what causes this not only the tantrum itself, but what is it about the age of two developmentally that allows us to coin that phrase of terrible twos?
Tyanna Snider:Yeah. Yeah. So this is really classic two year old behavior. And no two toddlers are two year olds are exactly alike. So you might have a two year old who doesn't have very many tantrums. And then you might have a two year old who seems to be having tantrums really frequently. And kind of all the time when we're thinking at this age, it's really a time where language is still developing. And so kids at this age don't have the words. They don't have the ability to communicate what they're feeling, what they need, what they want. And so, because they can't express that using their words, they're expressing it, using their behaviors or using their actions. And so that's often why a tantrum is happening and kind of why it tends to peak at this 24 a month. And the bad news parents is it kind of lasts for a while. So it can go up until three and even three and a half as their language starts to develop. And as they start to get a little bit better at expressing themselves using their words, You know, it's also at this age that kids also want to just be really independent. And so it's kind of at this two year old age where no is their favorite word, because they want to do things all by themselves. They want to be independent and they want to be in control and have things their way. And that's also really developmentally appropriate. And so this is something that we just expect to happen around this age.
Colin:As families are navigating that 24 to 36 month, that to the three-year-old window and the language development is really coming online. And there's a bit of this independence that's fostering and this understanding and processing of emotions. Is there advice that we could give to parents or recommendations? For either catching a tantrum early or taking a tantrum as it's happening and diverting into not just stopping the tantrum, but trying to connect that developing language with the emotion that's. It's being felt. I know this is something, when I talk with parents we spend a lot of time navigating. Well, what is your child feeling? And obviously in the moment, a lot of parents are gonna feel a little bit frustrated because they don't know. So is there a way that you would recommend to parents on how the discover, what is that emotion that our Little's having such a hard time with, that we can. Maybe step in a bit sooner or connect those dots for the word and the feelings. So maybe we can avoid some tantrums.
Tyanna Snider:Yeah. So ideally that is what we want to try and do when possible, knowing that we're not going to prevent all tantrums, it's going to happen. There are two, there are three, and this is just what we expect to happen, but there are some different things that we can do to try and promote more appropriate emotional effects. Freshen or maybe reduce the tantrums or the intensity of tantrums that these little guys might be having. But one of the things that you mentioned, they think even is just thinking about how can we label these feelings, how can we label these emotions for our children? And so that might just be something as, much as saying, I can tell that you're really upset. Set. I can tell that you're really angry right now, or maybe they're scared. And even labeling those feelings in yourself as you're going through your day to day, like I'm feeling really angry. Mom's feeling really sad right now to label those emotions along with those behaviors that you're noticing. You know, a lot of times at this age, too, kids are really easily emotionally overwhelmed. And so if they're tired, if they're hungry, if their routine is just a little bit off, those small little things can sometimes trigger bigger tantrums and make it harder for them to cope with things that might be going on in their day to day life.
Colin:So that leads nicely into another question that we have from a parent where I think that might be the answer, but I'm wondering if there might be more here to unpack. And the question is my five-year-old has started throwing tantrums at bedtime. As soon as I get a bedtime book to read, she will scream and cry and not sleep alone. She'll only come down. If I let her sleep with me, my husband and I are recently divorced. And I'm worried that is contributing to the tantrums, but I don't know what to do. Do you have any tips or recommendations
Tyanna Snider:Yeah. So that sounds really stressful and probably pretty frustrating for everybody who's in the home at this time. Especially with what is probably already a bit of a stressful time, just coping with the divorce and that separation. And it is likely that that's probably contributing to some of the behaviors and the tantrums and that bedtime kind of resistance and struggling that you're seeing right now. So you might even just want to. Can I talk with your child, not at bedtime, but before bedtime to kind of get a little bit more information about what are they feeling and what is maybe going on at bedtime. And why has it been so hard recently? And just trying to ask some of those questions to get a little bit more information knowing that. Probably not going to be super articulate. They're only five years old. So they're probably not going to be able to tell you everything that they're thinking and feeling, but they might be able to share that they're feeling scared or that they miss their dad, or maybe it was dad who usually read the bedtime story. And that's something that they want to keep just between them and dad. And then maybe we can think of a way to have a new normal as a part of that bedtime routine. Because we know that sleep is really important and you know, it's important for all ages, not just kids, but for us as adults too. And so we want to try and make sure that we're getting good sleep. And we know that one thing that helps with that is having kids sleep in their own beds and parents sleep in their own beds too. But certainly if this is a very stressful time, maybe it's not the time to make changes. And so if you need your five-year-old to sleep with you for a little bit, because that's just. Going to help you guys get through these next couple of months, then that's totally fine. It's certainly not going to hurt them or hurt anything. It might make it harder to get them back into their own bed a little bit later on, but it's definitely a choice that you have if now is just not a good time to make a lot of transitions and changes. There are some other things that you could do in terms of having that bedtime routine, having a bedtime schedule or a visual schedule might be helpful. And maybe also just giving the five-year-old some choices of different things that they want to do as part of this bedtime routine. So maybe instead of. Just going and getting the book. We can give them options about what book do you want to read and maybe name two or three book options, or do you want to read a book or sing a song or listen to a song before you go to bed tonight to give the five-year-old a little bit more sense of control as to what's going to happen. And when.
Colin:Yeah. So we've mentioned a couple of times about having a little identified their emotions and something that I know from the work that I've done in the developmental psychology space is there's often Not risk, but I'm drawing on a better word. Yeah. Here. So that's what I'm going to use. Our risk of us assigning these emotion for the child, or hearing themselves say one emotion and as adults realizing it's something else what are your recommendations there? Should we correct and help label? Or should we accept the emotion that's being told to us? Given the limited vocabulary and the expression and try the navigate. The expressed emotion maybe as opposed to the perceived emotion.
Tyanna Snider:Yeah, probably what I would recommend to just kind of go with the words that they're using and continue to use that. Even if we don't think it fits to just continue to go with that, that's a really good way to validate what they're feeling. So if they say that they're feeling angry and we're like, well, are you, I think maybe you're actually scared that kind of dismisses or invalidates that emotion or that expression of emotion that they're having. And so I would just go with what they're telling you, and then just help them learn different ways to cope with that strong emotion and learn different ways to express it that are maybe a little bit healthier. And a little bit more adaptive. We might say.
Colin:I can hear you. Some of the parents listening to the episode already saying, this is great advice. I can definitely do this at home when I have some time and we're not trying to get to preschool or get to our doctor's appointment. And we're already 15 minutes late and a tantrum happens. What about tantrums that are occurring in public places? And I know I have been. You know, at the store before and have seen a tantrum and I can't help, but laugh from an empathy standpoint because I get it. I've seen it, I've experienced it, but when you're the parent in that moment and we actually received this as a question there's feelings of embarrassment and guilt and anger. How do we navigate public tantrums without. You know, feeding into a mistake in behavior. What's that line that we should be walking as parents and caretakers and those moments.
Tyanna Snider:Yeah, that is a really hard situation. And like you said, it's really a situation that most caregivers, parents, aunts, uncles, grandparents have been in, or that we've witnessed in a grocery store or at target or something like that. And like you mentioned, we often feel bad. And so I think as caregivers, or when we're in that situation, we're feeling really embarrassed. We're feeling ashamed, we're feeling guilty, feeling like everyone's judging us and criticizing us and our child. And for the most part, I think that's not true. Most parents, if they are looking at us, they're thinking, Oh man, I've been in that situation and I know how hard it is. And so it's really coming up. Like you said, from that place of empathy, from that place of like, Oh man, I've been there. I think the biggest thing you want to do in the midst of a tantrum in a public place is stay calm. If your emotions start to get big, it's not going to be very helpful. You're not going to be able to help control your child's emotions. If your emotions are really big too. So you want to try and keep your own emotions in check and try and stay calm to the best of your ability. You also want to try and make sure that if you need to, that you can just. Try and redirect or distract your child. Sometimes you can give them a job to do like, Oh, Hey, can you go grab that tissue box? Or can you go grab those goldfish off the aisle for me? And giving them some type of job or something to do, or even just asking them to do something silly, like touch their head or touch their nose or tickle their little sister or something like that can sometimes just be enough to distract them and get them kind of off of what they were on and thinking about something else. You know, in some cases it is going to be necessary to maybe find it quiet spot in that store or a spot where there's not a lot of people around, or maybe going out to the car, if you were able, if you drove to the location that you're at, or maybe even just step outside, if it's safe and just take that little timeout with your little guy, to just give them that opportunity to get those strong emotions out. Kind of work through something, settle back down, and then maybe go back in if there's still time or, sometimes you just abort the mission, get everyone in the car and you come back at a later time.
Colin:what are your thoughts on what I would call it negotiations? So I'm almost feeding into the tantrum itself or rewarding the tantrum. This is something that I usually try to promote distractions. But I was wondering your opinion on, and there might be a better phrase for this, but I call them negotiations which I usually try to steer parents away from.
Tyanna Snider:We don't want to give into the tantrum, so we don't want to. I call it inadvertently reinforcing. We don't want to reward the child for those undesired behaviors that we're seeing by giving into that request or giving into what they want. So if we tell them, no, they can't have the phone or they can't have that piece of candy, then we really want to say. Stick to that. We want to try as much as we can to kind of stick to that decision. We've made really no matter what because we know what can happen is if we change our mind and say yes, that then that child's just learned. This really worked for me. I threw a big, huge tantrum and I got what I wanted. And I'm going to do this next time. Now that I've learned this, I'm going to do this next time. And it's not. And manipulation. These kids, aren't manipulating parents. They're not thinking about this or planning to have these tantrums ahead of time. They're just smart. And they're learning. And they're recognizing that when this happens, I did this. And so I'm just going to continue to do it again in the next situation. We also want to keep in mind, nobody's perfect. And so there might be times when you're like, all right, I gotta get outta here. I gotta get this done. I'm going to give you that candy bar. I'm going to give you the phone and I'm going to get out of here as quickly as possible, but then making it a point the next time to make sure that we're not consistently giving in or negotiating, like you're saying.
Colin:along similar lines, what recommendation would you have for. Either two parent households or two caretakers, whether it's mom and grandma or dad and uncle were tantrums begin to start triangulating. So for listeners that don't know what that is. That's when maybe a tantrums occurring. With our little here though, have the tantrum with mom, mom will say no, offer distraction, whatever it may be. And then shift over and go to dad, having the same tantrum, seeking the same thing, looking for you know, a yes, or looking for the, negotiation to happen. What recommendations do you have for multiple caretakers, both in the moment. And then preparation for tantrums that we all know are going to come.
Tyanna Snider:Yeah, that's a really good question. It is important to try and be as consistent as possible when we're, parents or as caretakers, we want to make sure that each person is really on the same page with regards to how we're going to respond to different things so that that triangulation can happen less frequently. It's probably still going to happen, but as, as much as we can be trying to be consistent from mom to dad, to grandma, to aunt, if they're all involved in the caretaking to have them really respond in a similar way as we can knowing that no one's going to be perfect. And so there will be those opportunities when mom says no and grandmas. Says yes. But trying to kind of keep those, those to a minimum and what can sometimes be helpful is to just, you know, kind of flip-flop those, times that people are spending with, the child, you know, one of the things that can sometimes help prevent tantrums and prevent some of these meltdowns from happening is to give lots of good time in. And so if you find that one parent is getting more tantrums than another parent, Sometimes it's helpful to just have that one parent or that one caregiver spend a lot more time, just special time. I often call it with the child just doing whatever it is that that child wants letting the child direct that interaction and just giving them a lot of good, positive attention in hopes that we can kind of reduce that maybe negative attention seeking behaviors that are happening, which often look like tantrums.
Colin:We've spent a lot of time talking about responses to tantrums. And I think this has been an amazing episode to fill up the toolbox for parents. But what about prevention to temper tantrums? Is that something that we can actually do is this meaning our temper tantrums apart of development that are going to happen regardless. So it's less about. The prevention and more about the preparation. What are your thoughts here?
Tyanna Snider:Yeah. So I think, tantrums are a part of normal development. It's a way for kids to learn, to tolerate frustration and to be able to cope with frustration. And that's a really important skill for toddlers to learn in this. Period of time. And so they're going to happen, but there are definitely ways that we can prevent them and that we can help manage them in those moments. One of the ways like I just mentioned is to really have some good time in, buy that. I mean, you just want to try and catch your child being good. You want to try and give them lots of positive attention when they're doing the things that we want them to do. So if you tell them to go clean up their toys or to go brush their teeth or use the bathroom, we want to really. Thank them for doing that. Thank you so much for going and cleaning up your toys. Thank you so much for going to use the bathroom. When I asked you to, we really want to give them a lot of that specific praise so that they know we loved whatever it was that they just did. You know, the other thing we want to do is just be prepared. These tantrums are going to happen. And so if you know, you have to run to the store after work and after you pick up your child from daycare from school, and maybe they're going to be tired and hungry, bring some snacks with you, have some things with you to keep them entertained, to keep them busy, to keep them distracted. You also want to try and have a good routine. We know that routines are really powerful for young kids in this two, three, four year old range, and that having a routine, having some sense of what's going to happen next and what's supposed to happen next can really be helpful in preventing some of these tantrums. And then, the other thing I think is just to. Work on giving really effective commands. I think a lot of times tantrums happen when we tell a child to do something and having appropriate expectations. When we tell them to do something that maybe is not appropriate for them at that age and having a two-year-old sit still for 30 minutes and not grab for things while we're in the grocery store maybe is not developmentally appropriate. And so we just want to make sure that we have expectations that are realistic in mind.
Colin:Could you give an example of what a good command would sound like or good ask would sound like? Cause I know even with my teaching staff at South side, early learning that's advice that I give a lot to think about how we're asking for certain things. And so preschool teachers are trained in child development, but parents are not, we do not get a handbook. When the baby's born and says, here you go, here's everything you need to know over these first 2000 days, what would a good ask or a good demand of a two-and-a-half year old soundbite?
Tyanna Snider:So a couple things you want to keep in mind is to try and just limit it to one thing at a time. So if you're asking a child, a three-year-old to go upstairs and brush their teeth and use the bathroom, that's probably too many things trying to just ask for one thing at a time. Go upstairs and brush your teeth. And then just following up after they brush their teeth with, okay, now we're going to use the bathroom and walking through it. Just one thing at a time. We also want to make sure that, and this is something I do a lot. We want to avoid asking directions or commands as questions. So instead of saying, are you ready to go take your bath? Or are you ready to go to bed and giving the child an opportunity to say. No, when really, it's not a question we want to make sure that we're phrasing it as a commander, as an instruction and not a question. So instead of, are you ready to take your bath saying something like, guess what? It's seven o'clock it's time to take your bath now and just being very direct about it. You also want to avoid giving too much explanation about why you're doing something or the reason you're giving them this direction or this command. You really just want to limit it to, Oh, we've got to clean up the house now and leave it at that and not go into grandma's coming over. And we know that grandma likes to have things clean and if she comes in here and sees it, it's a mess. She's going to be really upset with us. You've probably lost the child at that point. So try and stick to just what it is that you want them to do without giving too much of a reason or explanation.
Colin:Those are all awesome. Tips on setting up the expectation and for Parents. I think it's important to remind them there's, this, theory with parenting this practice where, when the younger, they are, we're thinking about a funnel, right? So if you think about the amount of negotiation, the amount of control that we want to have in situations, when they're young, the funnel's really. Tiny and tight. And as they become teenagers, we open that up a little bit, but I think this is a great example. We don't want to ask a three-year-old if they want to go take their bath because probably don't they're three, right? They they're probably having a fun. Yeah. They want to play and have fun. That's more of an appropriate question. I shouldn't maybe to ask an eight year old or to ask Leslie, given the teenagers, have you done X, Y, Z. Things that the expectations are. So I love that and I appreciate you sharing that. Yeah. The last question that I have is at what point are temper tantrums bad enough or concerning enough that we should talk to a professional. And this could go in a couple of different directions, but I want to focus. Set the boundaries of there isn't harm to others that's occurring. So it's, we're isolating the situation just to one particular little, they aren't necessarily, hitting or biting or anything else with anyone. At what point should we say this is beyond typical behavior for a two year old. Maybe I should talk to my pediatrician. What does that look like?
Tyanna Snider:Yeah. Even though we know that some headbanging and hitting children hitting themselves does happen. I think it's always a good idea to bring that to your pediatrician. So if your child is doing headbanging or if they're hitting themselves and it's happening more often with greater frequency, I think that's a really good thing to take to the pediatrician. And definitely if they're holding their breath. So some kids will do these breath holding spells, which are very scary. And so they hold their breath and really what ends up happening most of the time is they kind of start breathing again sometimes in really significant situations. Other things might happen, but. That's a really important thing to bring up with the pediatrician, cause then they could do some other workups and things like that to make sure that they're ruling out any other medical conditions or developmental delays or other things that might be going on. I think two is as a caregiver, a parent you're feeling kind of out of control and at your wit's end and not knowing what to do next or where to go. That's a time when you should bring that up with your pediatrician. And even if it's just to get some recommendations or some. Ways to support yourself or ways to manage these tantrums kind of more specifically and individually then that's, something that's important to bring up to them. If you're feeling like I just can't do this anymore. And I don't know where else to go. That's a good time to talk about it with your pediatrician. Or if you're thinking or finding that the tantrums are really impacting your relationship with your child, to a point where it's becoming overly negative and you feel like that's making up the bulk of that relationship with that child, it's really important to take that to the pediatrician so that they can help or help direct you to a psychologist or a counselor or another therapist who might be able to give you some steps to improve that relationship. Of course, if there's speech or language delays, that's always something to bring up with a pediatrician as well. And we know that while language is still developing, if there's a delay on top of that normal language development that some speech therapy or early intervention services might be helpful. And sometimes those delays can kind of contribute to temper tantrums as well and make them a little bit more frequent, more intense than what we would expect.
Colin:So we have covered a lot in this episode. And one thing that I like to do is provide our guests the opportunity to share anything that they wish with either parents or teachers that may be listening. So it could relate to tantrums, or it could be other things that you've seen through your work as a pediatric psychologist. So I just wanted to give the last couple of moments here. In the episode for you to share any kind of words of wisdom, either for the parent or teacher consumption that you may have.
Tyanna Snider:Oh, man. That's a big question. And I feel like I could talk about tantrums for hours. That is a big question. I think. You know, reach out to support as parents, as teachers, we are often frustrated and especially in this year, which has been a really unique and challenging year where we're working from home and kids are doing school from home and daycares were closed, that it was a really overwhelming year and we may be got off track with some of our stuff. Schedules and some of our routines. And so I think it's really important to just reach out to those supports that you have in place, reach out to friends, reach out to family, reach out to your pediatrician or to your daycare teachers. For that additional support and for any suggestions that they might have, and, really trust yourself often as parents, we doubt ourselves and maybe we criticize ourselves and we feel a lot of shame and guilt over things and trying to be perfect. You don't need to be perfect. There is no perfect parent. You just need to be good enough. And that's all that needs to happen. And I would just say, trust yourself, remind yourself that you're good enough and take time for yourself. It's important as a parent, as a caregiver, to make sure that you're doing things to kind of help yourself stay saying to be honest with you and help yourself stay happy. And so do those things that make you happy.
Colin:yeah. Dr. Sander, huge. Thank you from myself. South side, early learning and everyone listening to circle time today, this has been an amazing episode with a ton of great tips and insights, and it has been an honor to have you on the show.
Tyanna Snider:Thanks. I was so happy to be here.
Colin:What questions do you want to ask our experts on circle time? Tweet us at CircleTimePod to let us know or submit your questions by visiting circletimepod.com Be sure to share your favorite episode with others, Brayton like the podcast and never miss a new episode by finding and subscribing to the show on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. From South side, early learning I'm Colin page McGinnis. This is circle time and we'll see you in the next episode.